“MLD” & “PL”

[msmiller13]

Discuss the ways in which Robert Browning illustrates how the men in “MLD” and “PL” demonstrate their sentiments towards the Duchess and Porphyria. Provide textual evidence that provides insight into the Duke’s and the Lover’s perspective and motives. Your initial response should be a minimum of 500 words. Please respond to two classmates in no less than 100 words each.

[yaelg]

It isn’t uncommon to find unhealthy obsessions in the most mundane of tasks. Obsession against contamination (germaphobes), intrusive thoughts, and perfectionism are a wide-spread problem that can lead to a miserable lifestyle. Relational obsession, however, is perhaps the most damaging. When obsession becomes disorder, loved-ones become objects, and emotions get thrown out of the picture, it becomes a problem extending far beyond personal grief. In the poem, titled "My Last Duchess", by Robert Browning, the author makes clear the mental disorders that the narrator carries as he unravels the context of his painting; for instance, symptoms of borderline personality disorder, co-dependent personality disorder, and psychopathy are hinted at through the Duke's subtle, yet twisted line of reasoning. A similar trend can be observed in Browning’s other works, namely Porphyria’s Love. Unfeeling and obsessive, it becomes evident that both characters demonstrate an uncontrollable desire to preserve what they love most at any cost. The Duke safeguards the everlasting smile of his duchess in a painting, while Porphyria’s lover ensures that Porphyria’s feelings remain unchanged through the permanent fix death brings.
The Duke is overly dependent on the company and attention of the Duchess, to a point where his possessive nature is laid out bare. Consider the following stanza: “Sir, ’twas not Her husband’s presence only, called that spot Of joy into the Duchess’ cheek . . . Such stuff Was courtesy, she thought, and caused enough For calling up that spot of joy. She had A heart—how shall I say?— too soon made me glad, Too easily impressed”. The Duke appears annoyed that his presence was not the only source of joy for the Duchess. He criticizes her for being too easily impressed by any little thing in life. This only goes further when the Duke displays contempt at the idea that the Duchess would treat his gift (his name of 900 years) the same as any other he received. Insultingly (to him), the Duchess would even smile at any man passing by. It is for all of these reasons that the Duke would prefer to have the Duchess made a painting rather than a living being. In this way, her beauty can be kept to himself alone. In Porphyria’s Love, a similar pattern of objectifying women, preserving their beauty to only be kept inside closed doors, is demonstrated by the narrator. In the story, Porphyria appears to be defying some kind of social expectation (“pride, ties”) by meeting with the man. In the moment that the narrator realizes she is all his to control, the familiar urge to preserve the moment and keep the woman from ever drifting away takes over. Both the Duke and Porphyria's lover are capable of realizing their crime, yet feel no apparent guilt. Rather than delusion, I believe this shows psychopathy and disorders of borderline personality. They don’t attempt to shift the blame of killing away from themselves (the Duke would probably blame the Duchess for her own death, but she’s the victim), but rather accept their actions as nothing more than a mundane task to be gotten over with. We know for certain that Porphyria’s lover recognizes the severity of murder from the last line of the poem, “And yet God has not said a word!”. The notion of God is ubiquitously tied to ethics and judgment in religion, meaning that rather than the ethical ignorance tied with delusion, a lack of interest in the moral implications of his actions is more prevalent within the narrator, symptomatic of psychopathy.
The limits of what can be expressed in writing are frequently explored throughout his poems. Violence, sex, and infedility are some of the themes that his works often portray in such a natural manner as to blur the line of ordinary life. Perhaps it is his intention to highlight the severity of these themes to an audience whose feelings towards the subjects have grown dull. He accomplishes this through shock value that comes with the disturbing twists within his poem. This may be his overarching intention in the writing of the Duke and Porphyria’s lover’s character as psychopathic.

P.S. why would you do this to us...

[Kayla Kim]

In the texts The Last Duchess and Porphyria's Lover, both male leads are drunk on the ecstasy of male power and dominance that existed especially in this Victorian or Renaissance Era. In the Last Duchess, we see the text mention "Her husband’s presence only, called that spot Of joy into the Duchess’ cheek." A dimple that he presumes only he can make appear. The first reveal of male power is seen. In both stories, the males are seen attempting to make a fixed image of women and their natural sexuality. A glimpse of control to conserve and stabilize women in this era is seen from the attempt to mold women. In both texts, the wives die in the hands of the man, an attempt to preserve and fix women. In The Last Duchess, the Duke justifies his murder of his own wife by stating she had flaunted and flrted with other men and therefore was worth of a loss of life. In "Phorphria's Lover", the husband has given in to a single moment of his wife's innocence and obsession with her husband. In at attempt to preserve what is theirs, the husband justifies their killing of their own wives in an act of male desire to inscribe and fix female behavior that replicates what has existed in male minds as early as the Victorian Era. Although sentimental, both men are indicative of confidence in their choice, scapegoating their wives for ever tempting them of murder. "Then all smiles stopped together. There she stands As if alive. Will’t please you rise?"

[Loretta Matthews]

The authors write in a similar way in a sense that the boyfriend or husband kills their significant other to lack of being able to control or being in the lack of control.

[Lauren Gumarang]

What I find in common for both of these poems by Robert Browning ("My Last Duchess" 1842 and "Porphyria's Lover" 1836) is the depiction of love as it evolves into obsessive control over their respective lovers. In the dramatic monologue "My Last Duchess", the Duke (narrator) grows increasingly resentful of the Duchess as she grows more friendly to other individuals. As the Duke notes, "Too easily impressed; she liked whate’er She looked on, and her looks went everywhere" (Line 23). His jealousy gets the best of him, and in order to have and retain that control he desperately wants over the Duchess, he orders her murder, and then immortalizes her in an exquisite painting. This also shows the values of the time (the poem was written in the 1800s, Victorian era and pre-suffrage) towards women, objectifying them, with this painting commissioned exactly to depict her as a paragon of femininity, to be held up for the rest of the world to see, just as the narrator urges the audience to view the painting. And while the Duke seems to complement the Duchess throughout the poem ("Paint Must never hope to reproduce the faint Half-flush that dies along her throat" [Line 17]), these words turn ironic as he is revealed to have killed her. He demonstrates resentment of her: "but thanked Somehow -- I know not how -- as if she ranked My gift of a nine-hundred-years-old name With anybody’s gift" (Line 29). He paints her as ungrateful, trying to justify her death, perhaps to both himself and the audience.

In "Porphyria's Lover", which is also a dramatic monologue, as soon as Porphyria is vulnerable to the narrator and confesses her love, perhaps out of fear of loss of that love, he takes advantage of the vulnerability and kills her so he can exert control forever. The narrator notes, "That moment she was mine, mine, fair, Perfectly pure and good" (Line 36). This way of speaking in terms of his ownership reveals his thought process and how he truly views Porphyria, not as an equal, but something to be owned. He wishes to preserve what he believes as "perfect", and kills her to fulfill that goal. In addition, his treatment of her body, seemingly toying with it, demonstrates the view of women of this time period again, in an objectifying manner: "I warily oped her lids: again Laughed the blue eyes without a stain" (Line 44). His diction in this concluding part of the story seems to try to dignify this killing, noting that "And yet God has not said a word!" (Line 60). The diction in which he describes her corpse in contrast to how she was alive seems to suggest he believes she is better off dead than alive, take the difference between the damp and dripping Porphyria compared to "the smiling rosy little head" (Line 52). To be noted is that the narrator is also an unreliable one, seemingly under some sort of delusion.

[Lauren Gumarang]

Sept 21, 2022 11:35:02 GMT -8 yaelg said:

It isn’t uncommon to find unhealthy obsessions in the most mundane of tasks. Obsession against contamination (germaphobes), intrusive thoughts, and perfectionism are a wide-spread problem that can lead to a miserable lifestyle. Relational obsession, however, is perhaps the most damaging. When obsession becomes disorder, loved-ones become objects, and emotions get thrown out of the picture, it becomes a problem extending far beyond personal grief. In the poem, titled "My Last Duchess", by Robert Browning, the author makes clear the mental disorders that the narrator carries as he unravels the context of his painting; for instance, symptoms of borderline personality disorder, co-dependent personality disorder, and psychopathy are hinted at through the Duke's subtle, yet twisted line of reasoning. A similar trend can be observed in Browning’s other works, namely Porphyria’s Love. Unfeeling and obsessive, it becomes evident that both characters demonstrate an uncontrollable desire to preserve what they love most at any cost. The Duke safeguards the everlasting smile of his duchess in a painting, while Porphyria’s lover ensures that Porphyria’s feelings remain unchanged through the permanent fix death brings.
The Duke is overly dependent on the company and attention of the Duchess, to a point where his possessive nature is laid out bare. Consider the following stanza: “Sir, ’twas not Her husband’s presence only, called that spot Of joy into the Duchess’ cheek . . . Such stuff Was courtesy, she thought, and caused enough For calling up that spot of joy. She had A heart—how shall I say?— too soon made me glad, Too easily impressed”. The Duke appears annoyed that his presence was not the only source of joy for the Duchess. He criticizes her for being too easily impressed by any little thing in life. This only goes further when the Duke displays contempt at the idea that the Duchess would treat his gift (his name of 900 years) the same as any other he received. Insultingly (to him), the Duchess would even smile at any man passing by. It is for all of these reasons that the Duke would prefer to have the Duchess made a painting rather than a living being. In this way, her beauty can be kept to himself alone. In Porphyria’s Love, a similar pattern of objectifying women, preserving their beauty to only be kept inside closed doors, is demonstrated by the narrator. In the story, Porphyria appears to be defying some kind of social expectation (“pride, ties”) by meeting with the man. In the moment that the narrator realizes she is all his to control, the familiar urge to preserve the moment and keep the woman from ever drifting away takes over. Both the Duke and Porphyria's lover are capable of realizing their crime, yet feel no apparent guilt. Rather than delusion, I believe this shows psychopathy and disorders of borderline personality. They don’t attempt to shift the blame of killing away from themselves (the Duke would probably blame the Duchess for her own death, but she’s the victim), but rather accept their actions as nothing more than a mundane task to be gotten over with. We know for certain that Porphyria’s lover recognizes the severity of murder from the last line of the poem, “And yet God has not said a word!”. The notion of God is ubiquitously tied to ethics and judgment in religion, meaning that rather than the ethical ignorance tied with delusion, a lack of interest in the moral implications of his actions is more prevalent within the narrator, symptomatic of psychopathy.
The limits of what can be expressed in writing are frequently explored throughout his poems. Violence, sex, and infedility are some of the themes that his works often portray in such a natural manner as to blur the line of ordinary life. Perhaps it is his intention to highlight the severity of these themes to an audience whose feelings towards the subjects have grown dull. He accomplishes this through shock value that comes with the disturbing twists within his poem. This may be his overarching intention in the writing of the Duke and Porphyria’s lover’s character as psychopathic.

P.S. why would you do this to us...

I agree with your sentiments. I also like how you likened the obsessive nature to other tasks in the everyday world as well. What I think is most profound from your comments is how both narrators feel no guilt in regards to their actions, only wanting to justify their actions to both themselves and the audience. This, as you note, could be the fault of some sort of psychological disorder. I didn't notice that the last line of "Porphyria's Lover" seems to suggest that the narrator acknowledges the severity of the situation, and contributes to a smugness to the narrator. This further contributes to an objectification of the women in the story, as disposable as long as the men see fit. This also takes into account the chapter "Don't Read with Your Eyes" from HTRLLAP, where we must take into account the time period in which this piece is written in order to more deeply understand this poem. 

[Lauren Gumarang]

Sept 21, 2022 14:55:31 GMT -8 Kayla Kim said:

In the texts The Last Duchess and Porphyria's Lover, both male leads are drunk on the ecstasy of male power and dominance that existed especially in this Victorian or Renaissance Era. In the Last Duchess, we see the text mention "Her husband’s presence only, called that spot Of joy into the Duchess’ cheek." A dimple that he presumes only he can make appear. The first reveal of male power is seen. In both stories, the males are seen attempting to make a fixed image of women and their natural sexuality. A glimpse of control to conserve and stabilize women in this era is seen from the attempt to mold women. In both texts, the wives die in the hands of the man, an attempt to preserve and fix women. In The Last Duchess, the Duke justifies his murder of his own wife by stating she had flaunted and flrted with other men and therefore was worth of a loss of life. In "Phorphria's Lover", the husband has given in to a single moment of his wife's innocence and obsession with her husband. In at attempt to preserve what is theirs, the husband justifies their killing of their own wives in an act of male desire to inscribe and fix female behavior that replicates what has existed in male minds as early as the Victorian Era. Although sentimental, both men are indicative of confidence in their choice, scapegoating their wives for ever tempting them of murder. "Then all smiles stopped together. There she stands As if alive. Will’t please you rise?"

I agree with your notes on the values of these eras and the effect of them on this piece. Both want to have their partners adhere to a certain standard of femininity in accordance to this time period, one commissioning a painting to immortalize the woman he killed, and the other keeping the corpse of the woman he killed. Both use various excuses to justify their actions, in "My Last Duchess"  painting his wife as someone committing infidelity. On the other hand in "Porphyria's Lover", the murder is painted as a way to retain a perfect woman by his side, or a woman that adheres to the idea of the paragon of what a woman should be in the eyes of this narrator. 

[Leila Issa]

Both texts, “My last Duchess” and “Prophyria’s Lover” are examples of connecting poems. They are both narrate a characters love story. The duke from “My last Duchess” and the man from “Prophyria’s Lover” both share similar traits and many of the same actions. They both love the feeling of being in control of another. In “My Last Duchess”, The man wants to take total control over his wife’s life and only for his wife to pay attention to him, not anybody else. This is similar in “Porphyria’s Lover”, where the speaker also loves being the only one in power. In “Porphyria’s Lover”, the man talks about how the woman would get into the cabinet and plays his head on her shoulder. But after the man kills the woman, he places her head on his shoulder. This indicates a feeling of power and control. Their frustrations over lack of power, led them to both kill their woman. And as a result, they both felt even more empowered.

[Leila Issa]

I agree with your statement, in both poems, the men are wanting a sense of power and control of another person. Both men share very similar characteristics and actions as they both end up killing their significant other just because they want to have power over them.

[ejknez]

Before I begin I’d like to note that I’m using my phone to type this, as such there may be both grammatical and spelling errors that will pass by me unnoticed, for that I am truly sorry. Furthermore, I cannot see just how many words I’m typing so I will simply state my initial thoughts and opinions regarding the topic at hand, and likely avoid stating too much of what I think seeing as my thumbs are already beginning to hurt. In these poems, which I am quite fond of, both main characters can be seen to possess certain attributes that may be considered, abnormal and delusional, to say the least. In “PL” the lover murders “P”, as she’ll be referred to for the sake of the little sanity I have left, in an act to preserve the picture perfect, movie romance. He feels as though he must be in control and cannot let fate or rather her individuality and consciousness create a problem later down the line. Somewhat ironic that it is he who created and was the problem. Also interestingly he mentions how God did not intervene, which of course in his delusional mind meant, “Oh, yay! In that case killing is fine.” But, that combined with his need for control and power over those he [sarcastically] “loves” shows that he most likely is a narcissistic, sociopathic a-hole that sees himself as a God-like figure. Similar to how the Duke in “TLD” was. Both believed they had the right to take another’s life in order to preserve what they thought to be a perfect romance. They figured if one didn’t respect their power relative to their relationship and community that person deserves a punishment per se. Like I said I’m going to avoid going too deep, but I also doubt that the poems are meant to be broken down too much more, I mean I can father more evidence, but there isn’t really a need for it. And before I go, being a geek, I’d like to say that I feel like these are very similar stories to the story of Edward Nigma, a.k.a the Riddler, in the show “Gotham”, of course they all follow a similar pattern to thousands of other stories which ultimately all are the same, but I just kind of like to connect things to more relevant and accessible options that I can use to teach the younger generations to be better than the ones before and current. One final example, the show “You” on Netflix, I love it and it pertains to the idea of the perfect or fantasized romance that leads to the man feeling a lack of power or control that was never really there, as such it leads to him impulsively or willing killing the other, typically rationalizing it in completely insane rationalities.

[calinda sang]

I see a lot of likeness in both poems that makes me think of the chapter, "Now Where Hav I Seen Her Before" from HTRLLAP in which both the duke from "My Last Duchess" and the narrator from "Porphyria's Lover" by Robert Browning exhibit a lot of similar character traits and actions such as possessiveness, the need for control, and the eventual murder of their spouses. The duke throughout the story of "MLD" tells the visitor about the beauty and grace of his late spouse but as the story goes on, he continues to talk about her "unfaithfulness". He relented about how she seemed to entertain other men and was jealous that the way she acted with others was the same as how she acted with him. His aristocratic ego also came through when talking about how she was almost looking down on his 900 year old name, treating this "gift" of a grand last name the same as any other. It was obvious she bruised his ego a lot and when he couldn't control her actions the way he wanted to, she was killed. He treated the late duchess a lot like a piece of property that was meant to be a thing that praised him and his prestige. The fact that she didn't do that sent him into a spiral, as if her only purpose was to be of service to him, so when she wasn't, she was useless. In "PL", the narrator exhibits a lot of the same needs for control and possession. When the narrator learns that his love interest is in love with him, he kills her and props her dead body up next to him. Her profession of love, to him, meant that she wanted to worship him forever and was his and all this stuff about how she was his "possession" now because she said she loved him. This is obviously a pretty twisted perspective on her confession, but in order to keep that control over her forever, the narrator strangled her to death just so he would never lose that control. She stopped being a person after what she said. Now, she was just his possession.

[elian]

In the poems, "My Last Duchess" and "Prophyria's Lover," both men view women in same way and seek to control over them. I think that the men in the stories both overestimated their wives' love for them. They believed that they view the men on a pedestal, like a knight in shining armor, when in reality, the women were suffering. I also believe that the men think that they are granting the women their greatest wishes, which in their eyes is being with them. They believe that what they are doing is a favor. I think that this stems from insecurity and their constant need to be viewed at by others as loved and powerful get to his own head. Although it describes the men physically killing the women, I believe it isn't actually the women dying, but rather their lives before marriage. The men expect the women to give up everything to them, wanting them to be "pure and good." They want them to be giving all their love to him and him only. She isn't allowed to go and have fun, eye other men, and do other things that would make the women happy. The women are basically giving away either life once they are married, and in some way this is true since the men want to control the women.

[Ashlyn Davis]

The main similarity I took away from "My Last Duchess" and "Porphyria's Lover" was the motivation by both speakers to justify their actions in killing the two women. Their justifications differed from one other slightly (the duke in "My Last Duchess" tried to justify her death by blaming the Duchess herself for her own actions. and the narrator in "Porphyria's Lover" had a more delusional approach), but they both had the same end objective in mind. I also think part of the narrators justification in "Porphyria's Lover" stood on him being in denial, saying Porphyria didn't feel pain when he killed her, almost as if that idea made what he did less malicious. In some capacity, I think it is possible that statement is true; when the poem states "No pain felt she, I am quite sure she felt no pain," we assume he is referring to her have a quick and painless death, but it could be referencing a more emotional pain, since his actions most likely caught Porphyria off guard, and everything happened quickly enough that she did not have time to feel any betrayal or animosity towards him, especially considering how much she loved him.

[notyounice]

In both poems “My Last Duchess” and “Porphyria’s Lover”, Robert Browning illustrates the men in this time period having/wanting dominance and power. They, therefore, use women to achieve their desires. Although both men tried to express their love for these women, they expressed it by objectifying them through violence and dominance. As both women fell victim to their lovers' leading to their death due to the men wanting to fix the image of women. In “My Last Duchess” it says, “That’s my last Duchess painted on the wall, Looking as if she were alive. I call That piece of a wonder, now: Fra Pandolf’s hands Worked busily a day, and there she stands. Will’t please you sit and look at her? I said...” from this you can still see the duke admiring his former Duchess although she was no longer alive although the duke was the one who ordered her to death. Even after her death the duke continues his duties and arranges another marriage and still considers these women as objects as they can be replaced as the text says, “Though his fair daughter’s self, as I avowed At starting, is my object. Nay, we’ll go Together down, sir.” This shows that the duke’s new bride’s family was willing to sacrifice their daughter even after what happened to his last wife since this was a time where women no say, and where the family also couldn’t save their daughter because the duke was rich with more power, status. Whereas in “Porphyria’s Lover” His lover who loved him became a victim, because he realized that she worshipped him just as the text says, “at last I knew Porphyria worshipped me: surprise Made my hear swell, and still it grew While I debated what to do. That moment she was mine, mine, fair, Perfectly pure and good:” Proving that he likes being worshipped and having power so in order to preserve it, he decides to kill Porphyria. Even after Porphyria is killed by being strangled to death, he then plays around with her body and doesn’t feel the slightest bit of regret, sadness, or fear because God has not even punished him yet as he says, “And yet God has not said a word!” Religion being a be deal during this timeline shows that if even God hasn’t said anything or punished him yet he thinks that God is agreeing with his morals as women are just objects therefore he killed his own lover because he knows that he can replace her with another woman.

[mirandaclue101]

The Duke’s feelings towards the late Duchess were negative in that he was jealous of how she treated others and felt she was unfaithful to him. He did not like how she treated others so much that he killed her off. He played with the fate of her life because he felt like he was allowed to. He was motivated to kill by his anger and resentment towards the Duchess and decided it was better to have her dead than smiling at any other man. In the text, it states, “Oh, sir, she smiled, no doubt,whene'er I passed her; but who passed without much the same smile?” His perspective on his Duchess was that she was too easily pleased by other men that weren’t her husband. We can also see from the text that the Duke did carry sentiments for the Duchess which leads to the irony of how he killed her. He believes he has a power over the Duchess which is why he thinks it is in his rights to kill her if she disobeys him. Since this was in the 19th century, it isn’t uncommon for men to think they have ownership over their wives but that doesn’t mean it is not wrong. The relationship between the Duke and Duchess carries a power struggle between the both of them. The Duke wants to control the Duchess for something as small as smiling yet for all we know the Duchess is just trying to be kind to others. The man shows his appreciation for Porphyria because he believes she belongs to him. He is overjoyed in the thought that she has given herself over to him and she is now his. It states. “...at last I knew /Porphyria worshiped me; surprise / Made my heart swell, and still it grew / While I debated what to do.“ It is kind of odd how he is happy that Porphyria is entranced by him and how he can do anything and still have her favor. Again, men love to have ownership over their lovers in this time period apparently. To know he owns her and she is weak around him arouses his interest uncomfortably so. He is motivated by how she portrays herself to him and is proud that he got her to worship him. He also brings in her purity and her goodness which is concerning in that these traits are what strengthen his belief that he holds a higher position to her. These two men are weird and they like to hold power and ownership over their lovers or wives. Their perspective of love is tainted and circles around the powerful and the weak.